The wait is over and I've got the new Enhancer in place. I asked for and received the following instruction on how to set up the City side of the Enhancer: When connecting the Enhancer be sure the dials are set to "0". Once you have it installed, turn the lower switch to "Enhanced" and the upper switch to "City". Then slowly turn the "City" dial until your engine starts to sputter, then turn the dial back 1/4 turn. I expect that this will come in handy for anyone going down this path.ADDED NEXT DAY: I also asked for and received the following information on how to set the Highway side of the Enhancer: The Highway setting is for speeds above 40 mph. Match the HWY Dial to your City setting. After reaching a speed of 40 mph, switch to your dial to HWY and lean it out until your comfortable with your setting. Be careful and do this slowly. You don't want your engine to die at that speed. Also remember, when you want to pass or go up a steep incline, switch your lower switch to Factory so you will have all the power you need. Good info for all.
As I said in the last post I waited to fill up until I got the new gadget, so here are the results - as you can see I didn't do as badly as I'd expected since this works out to 22.9 MPG - (lets call it 23 why don't we) which is nearly couple of miles-per beyond my norm. This was obtained with the Oxygen Sensor Spacer installed as well as the HHO Generator. I suppose if I'd done the battery trick I would have done even better. It just occurred to me, (as I wrote that last line) that I didn't do it when I did the install - so I promise to go out and do it in a little while so that everything starts from an even base.
Wish me luck since my luck will also be yours...
Posts
44 comments:
Hey there... I've had many of the same experiences that you've had. I've experienced the frustration of getting lower-than-normal gas mileage, the desire to inflate results, etc. All I can say is keep trying and learning more. It really does pay off when you finally get it all figured out. I finally got everything sorted out with my own setup, and I went from zero increase to a full 50% increase. My truck used to get 16-17mpg, and now I'm getting 25mpg in the city! I started off with a single cell kit with twisted wires, straight from the book. I finally realized that it wasn't putting out enough HHO to make much difference in my truck. I moved the whole kit to my wife's Camry, and she immediately went from 20 to 30 mpg. For my truck, I ended up buying a two cell kit from ebay. They are not standard twisted wire cells though. They have perforated 316L plates instead. (from seller "bigwizard!") This two-cell kit with the plate design is putting out as much gas as six twisted wire cells! Best of all, the whole cell was already put together. I didn't have to fart around with goop or super glue or worry about leaks. Installing this new two-cell kit made all the difference. At first, I was running it too lean and only got 15mpg on the first try. Then I backed off a bit and immediately started getting 25mpg. The biggest thing I learned for future reference is to use the kits from bigwizard! on ebay. I've had experience building a twisted-wire cell, and it took me hours to assemble. The kit with the plates required no assembly, and it works so much better. The amount of HHO your cell puts out does make a difference. The more HHO, the leaner you can run. The single twisted-wire cell did almost nothing in my truck, but it was enough to give a smaller car a 50% boost. But with the high output double cell kit, I'm now getting 50% better mileage. I didn't read your entire blog from the start, so I don't know what type of car you have and what type of cell you installed. But if you're only seeing a small improvement, your car might just need more HHO.
The only thing left that I still need to do is install an o2 sensor spacer. My mileage is great, but my check engine light is always on now. I'm also going to upgrade my wife's cell to the perforated plate design. I think she could be getting 40mpg or more with some extra HHO.
Anyway, hope this helps! Just keep at it, and you'll start to see some big numbers soon!
Thanks for the update and the info. This is stuff that everyone needs to hear. Great and encouraging. Rock on!
J
How did you run your wires from the MAP to inside the vehicle next to the driver? Is there an easy way to go through the firewall?
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Darrell in Denver
Hey Darrell - as I write this I'm trying to figure out how to describe this... on my car at least there are small rubber type grommets that already dot the firewall. My mechanic pointed one out for me because I had no idea before he did that - that such things existed. I was able to take a drill and open that rubber fitting up enough to shove a wire through. Once I'd done that I was able to push another couple of wires along side the first. I think that best thing you could do would be to go to an auto shop, act dumb and ask if someone could point out such things on your car; tip who ever it is and share what the heck you're after. You'll make a new friend and perhaps have the experience letting someone else know what's up with w4g.
I don't know if any of this helpful or not, but at least look around to see if you can spot those access points - as I do believe that they exist on all cars.
Best,
Jon
It just depends on the car... I had to do it two different ways for my truck and my wife's car. On my truck there was a rubber circle on the firewall. I popped it off, made a hole through the center, and poked the wires through. Then I ran the wires under the carpet and in through the back of the center console. I had an empty slot below my stereo, so I built a wood panel and mounted the potentiometer there. On my wife's car, I had to run the wires over to the passenger side. There was another rubber grommet with some wires going through it, so I used that. I had to remove the glove box to grab the wires coming through, and then I ran them under the carpet and under the center console. I drilled a hole in the plastic down near the hood lever and installed the knob there. It took about 30 minutes to install on my truck, and about 2 hours on my wife's car. Also, I only recommend using a MAP sensor enhancer if your o2 sensors are compatible with o2 sensor spacers. If the MAP enhancer is all you have, then your check engine light will come on when you lean the fuel mixture. Your ECU will revert to a "safe mode" and usually dump in extra fuel. You can still get better mileage with the check engine light on, but you won't be getting as much as you could. If your o2 sensors are compatible with the spacers, then the combination of the spacer and the MAP enhancer should do the trick. The o2 sensor spacer will keep the CEL off and keep the ECU in a closed loop. If your o2 sensors are not compatible (mine aren't), then I wouldn't waste your time with a MAP/MAF enhancer. That's what happened to me. I installed the MAF enhancer, and then I realized the only way to get my CEL off would be an EFIE. I bought one yesterday and I'm waiting for it to arrive, but I'm going to have to uninstall the MAF sensor and then install the EFIE. I tried the MAF enhancer because it was a cheap way to learn about the system, but now I wish I had just started off with an EFIE. My wife's car on the other hand is doing fine with just one o2 sensor spacer and the MAP enhancer.
Hopefully this made sense. In summary, you can get by with a MAP/MAF enhancer only if you can fit a spacer on your o2 sensor(s). If the spacers don't fit, then don't bother because your check engine light will always be on. In that case, the only good solution is an EFIE.
OMG Kyle - a much more clearly stated solution than I could ever hope to provide. I really appreciate your stepping in.
Thanks,
J
I had my mechanic run the wires for me today when he installed the 02 extenders. I installed the MAP enhancer, disconnected the battery for 30 minutes, but when I tried to tune it, even at full lean the engine wouldn't stall. From what I've read, it looks like the 02 sensor is what controls the fuel mixture on my vehicle (1999 Nissan Pathfinder), so I'll have to look into an EFIE. Unless you have any insight.
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Darrell in Denver
I wouldn't give up on the MAP enhancer yet. The fuel mixture is controlled by both the MAP sensor and o2 sensors. Any vehicle with a MAP sensor should work with a MAP enhancer. Are you sure that the wiring is correct and you're using the correct pin on the MAP sensor? And if so, are you sure you have the right potentiometer? You should be using a 50k Ohm, 0.5 watt linear taper potentiometer with a 33k 0.5w resistor on the ground pin. The middle pin of the potentiometer should go to the ECU. For the side pins, one should be ground and the other should be the signal coming from the MAP sensor. Reversing the two outside pins will just reverse the direction you need to turn the knob.
You could try comparing the input and output of the potentiometer to see how much it's actually adjusting the signal.
The EFIE is nice though. I just got mine installed yesterday, and it definitely helps to have a tangible number to adjust. And installation was actually easier than the MAP/MAF enhancer once I finally found the correct wire to cut. I was able to find the o2 sensor signal wire right at the computer, so I installed the EFIE without having to run wires through the firewall... it's a cleaner solution overall.
Let me know if you need any more help.
I referenced the Haynes Repair Manual to ID the proper wire to cut. I just double checked my wiring and confirmed it's hooked up properly. The MAP Enhancer I bought from HHO Development, the same place Jon got his, so I can't speak for the pots and resistors.
What do I need to compare the input and output of the pots, and how do I do it?
What do you think about removing the 02 sensors altogether?
No, you can't remove the o2 sensors. If you did, your check engine light would come on and your computer would start running in an open loop. It would just give up on modifying the fuel ratio and revert to a safe mode, which means dumping in extra fuel.
I'm not sure what to tell you about the MAP enhancer. Maybe it's possible that the design from HHO development is designed so that it doesn't reduce the voltage enough to kill the engine. It might be reducing the voltage enough to give you the extra mileage but without going too far. On my wife's car I used the exact design from the water4gas book, and I had to turn the knob almost all the way up to kill the engine, but it started knocking with the knob about half-way turned. Your MAP enhancer might be designed so that cranking it up all the way doesn't get you to that point. That would actually make sense, because you really don't need to be able to kill the engine with it or even get close to that point. You just need enough adjustment room to get you into your optimal fuel saving range, which is far below the point of choking the engine. That would also allow for finer adjustments. Since the total voltage range of the knob would be smaller, each degree you turn it would make a smaller adjustment, which is what you want. So since it's a pre-made MAP enhancer, I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed that way.
So in other words, it may be working even if you can't tell any difference when you turn the knob. I would do a few quick mileage tests to see. Maybe try three different settings, like all the way to the left, 1/2 turn, and then 3/4 turn. You could try turning it all the way up and see what happens, but that will probably put you past your optimal range. If your check engine light turns on while you are driving, you've gone too far and need to back off a little. The light will turn off after 2 or 3 trips. You could even try to make your check engine light turn on as a test to see if the MAP enhancer is working. Try turning the knob all the way and drive around. If the light comes on while you are driving, then you know the MAP enhancer is working.
Give that a shot first. If you see little or no difference between the various knob settings, then I would start thinking about an EFIE.
I do not like to post conflicting material (but sometimes, forgive me, but I must:-)- however the MAP Enhancer (from HHO D) that I have does indeed have the capacity to stall the engine when I turn the rheostat down. So I'm kind of leaning in the direction of something not being connected somewhere. Also, I have to admit that I do have the Oxy Sensor out of the system at the moment (against the good advice from Vernon HHO Development) - but the way that I understand things best is when I try them for myself and live with the results.
Eventually we will all come to some clear understanding that will hopefully make things easier for others who will come along later.
I would listen to Jon since he has the same setup. I was just taking a stab at it, so I would take his advice over mine.
Let's just put this in the category of that - we're all looking for the same answers.
I really have no advice - other than listen to everything and then make decisions that make sense to you.
Then when any one of us has the right one we will all know about it.
Thanks to both of you for jumping in. Eventually it will all come together.
Hmmm, sounds like I need to make sure the enhancer is hooked up correctly. Is the best way to do that by checking the input and output of the potentiometer? Can I use any kind of volt meter? And all I'm looking for is a reduction in voltage when I turn the knob?
Yeah, any volt meter or multimeter that has a range in the 10-20v neighborhood should work fine. The voltage on the input wire should be somewhere between 0 and 5 volts, and it should change when you increase or decrease your rpm. If it doesn't change when you rev up the engine, then it's probably the wrong wire. The output (middle pin of the potentiometer) should be the exact same when the knob is turned all the way down, and the voltage should start dropping as you turn the knob up.
I think I'm getting close here. I used a volt meter and tested the enhancer and verified the change when I revved the engine, and the decrease in voltage as I turned the knob. Funny thing is, even with the knob turned all the way and the voltage registering 0, the engine still ran. There was no chugging or laboring. I guess that's just the way my particular car works. So kudos to Kyle for his insight. I'll do some mileage checks and report back.
My Service Engine Soon light came on for the first time. Will that affect my ability to lean the fuel?
Even if it runs with the knob all the way up, I wouldn't run it like that. If you drop the voltage all the way to zero, your computer might think that your MAP sensor is dead and just ignore it altogether. If your check engine light comes on, you're probably trying to run too lean, especially since you have o2 extenders. For a starting point, I would turn the knob as far as you can before the check engine light comes on, and then back off maybe 1/8th of a turn. You want to keep the check engine light off so that you're running a closed loop. Your optimal setting should be somewhere a little bit below the point where it comes on.
The check engine light is on all the time now. I can't turn it off by adjusting the knobs on the enhancer. Does that mean the computer is in an open loop and it will ignore the MAP sensor altogether?
Once I disconnected the Oxygen Sensor my engine light came on and stayed on. As far as leaning out the mixture - if you haven't looked at my latest posts you will see that my settings are quite different from what I thought they'd be. I suppose that your car might have something in the way of allowing the MAP Enhancer to fully lean the mixture to the point of stalling. I'd suggest the possibility that it might be the Oxy Sensor in conflict with the instruction from the Enhancer. Try disconnecting the Oxy Sensor and then see what happens with the MAP Enhancer. It's at least worth a try.
j
Once your check engine light comes on, it takes 3 or 4 "trips" with no fault codes before it turns itself off. So if you turned your MAP enhancer all the way down, the light should turn off eventually. Or you can clear it by disconnecting the negative terminal on your battery for about 15 seconds. With the check engine light off and the MAP enhancer turned down, start driving and gradually turn the knob up while you are accelerating. When the light turns on, stop. Turn the knob back down a little and clear your check engine light. Drive around at that setting and make sure the light doesn't come back on. You will be in a closed loop and should be pretty close to your optimal setting. If the light does come back on, turn the knob down a little more until you can drive around without the light turning on. I know it's tempting to try to set the knob as high as possible, but when your CEL turns on, you're probably past your optimal fuel saving range already. If you run too lean for too long, you are risking some expensive engine damage. So start low and work your way up. If you have a way to measure the temperature of your exhaust, don't let it get above 180F.
To answer your question, most cars running in an open loop will ignore the o2 sensors. They continue to use the MAP/MAF sensor, but they do not check the exhaust. They will stop trying to modify the air/fuel ratio using the sensors and will just use a "safe" amount of fuel, which usually equates to a richer mixture. So then you end up turning the knob even further to make up for the safe mode. It's still possible to get good mileage with these conditions, but you won't get your maximum fuel savings running it that way.
I had an occasion to do some highway driving today. Typically I get 20mpg, but today I got 25mpg! That's a 25% increase! I still need to find that sweet spot, but it's gratifying to finally see some results.
Thank you Jon, Kyle and Walmartshopper for your valuable feedback!
Congratulation's Darrell! I love good news and this is good indeed.
Rock on,
J
Awesome! Keep us up to date on any more progress you make.
I'm still trying to find the right setting on the EFIE, but I think I'm pretty close.
My next big step will be switching from baking soda to KOH as the electrolyte. I got the following information from the seller of my HHO kit:
I recommend baking soda but KOH “Potassium Hydroxide” is the best, it won't make sludge water and won't dissipate over time. It will also remove the corrosive effect of baking soda. KOH is hazardous and can't be recommended to the average person.
I get the KOH in Flake form and add it by weight. About 14 grams per cell for 2 cell kits, and 3 grams for 1 cell kits.
Try to keep the mix balanced between the 2 cells.
CAUTION: insure the area is well ventilated and has no ignition source available.
You can set the base electrolyte on a bench with a battery and a charger.
Start low and run the cell for 30 min before adding any more and add a little at a time.
Watch the cell closely for at least 30min after the amp draw stabilizes to insure it doesn't overheat, if it won’t stabilize and continues to climb you have too much KOH, weaken the mix by pouring some out and adding pure distilled water. Monitor the cell with an ammeter, keep it around 15A.
Now install the cell and watch it closely, your vehicles alternator will likely put out a higher voltage than your charger and could cause the cell to overheat.
After 10 hrs or so of run time the cell will be broke in and will need to have the electrolyte strength readjusted.
After your all set just add distilled water to keep the cells toped off.
Just to avoid confusion, kyle = walmartshopper. I started using my Google account to post, and I didn't realize my username had changed.
After my results from my last fill up, I installed a second electrolyzer. I wanted to see how that alone would affect my mileage so I didn't adjust the enhancer, just left the settings where they were when I got the 25 mpg. I've been doing more city driving than highway this time, but when I filled up today, I got 22.25 mpg. That surprised me. Although better than normal, I thought with more hydrogen going into the engine, it would improve gas mileage without any other adjustments. Could I have a leak in the 2nd electrolyzer? Any thoughts?
With two cells, you will probably need to turn the MAP enhancer up a little higher. Since you're burning more hydrogen, there's more o2 in the exhaust than there was with one cell, and you probably just need to adjust the MAP enhancer to compensate for the additional o2. So when you leave your MAP enhancer at the same setting and then install another cell, you're running a richer mixture than you were before.
The other potential problem is the difference in voltage when you use two cells. For one cell running on 12 volts, you probably only have 1-2 teaspoons of baking soda in the jar. When you switch to two cells running in series on 6v each, you need 5-6 teaspoons of baking soda to get the most out of them. So if you ran a dual cell kit with 1-2 teaspoons in each cell, then you may have been producing less hydrogen than one cell. If that's the case, then try 5 teaspoons of baking soda when you run two cells (only if they are in series, which they should be).
Kyle - you're experience is so different from mine. Please see my last few postings at the top of the blog.
It would be good if we can find the common thread here. Currently I am using 1 1/4 teaspoons of Baking Soda in each of two Electrolyzers. With pretty good results. How do you think that this is happening?
j
Yeah, that's interesting. Maybe it's still putting out a decent amount of hydrogen with 1.25tsp in each cell. Maybe it's still putting out more than a single cell. But I still don't think you're getting the most out of a two cell kit unless you have at least 5tsp in each cell. Even if you already get good results with 1.25tsp in each cell, you would probably get even better results with 5tsp.
I realized after posting my last comment that only one of those theories could be true, but not both. The first theory about having to adjust the MAP enhancer to make up for extra o2 would only be true if the cells were actually putting out more hydrogen. And if the second theory was true and there was less hydrogen, then the MAP enhacer would actually need to be adjusted down instead of up. But since Jon has had good results with 1.25tsp of baking soda in each cell, the theory about producing less hydrogen is apparently not true. So chances are you're producing more hydrogen and just need to compensate for it with the MAP enhancer.
Hmmmmmm, I have to say that I have no choice at this point than to put more Baking Soda into the mix.-) I figure why not? That's what this is all about for me at this point - discovering what happens when I step past what I already know (or think I know) and then reporting back on the results. Everything is a challenge. I believe that we of the w4g community are all on the verge of something awesome. Thanks guys.
Yeah, let's push this thing to the limits and see what happens. Let's keep trying new things and sharing our experiences. It's very helpful to hear some different experiences. I just learned from Jon's blog how important it is to seal the lids... that's one more thing that will help us get the most out of the cells. One of the main things I've learned after doing this is that every little detail of the system is important, and the lid seal was one of those little things that I overlooked.
On a different note...
The reason you can add more baking soda with two cells is that the electrolysis becomes more efficient at 6 volts, and less energy gets converted into heat. So each cell can produce much more gas than a single cell without overheating. A dual cell kit with 5tsp in each cell should run about the same temperature as a single cell with 1tsp. That's why I encourage people to use dual cell kits unless they don't have enough space. Based on info from bigwizard, a dual cell kit puts out about as much gas as three single cells.
I have another experience and success story to share. I've been using a dual supply system all along... one in the PCV and one in the main intake, and I learned an important lesson about it today.
First I need to describe the way my hoses have been set up so far. There was one hose coming out of each cell. They merged together into one hose, went through the check valve, and then split back into the separate hoses. I knew the PCV line would have more vacuum during idle and low rpm, and the main intake would have higher vacuum at higher rpm, so I figured the vacuum pressure of both lines would be combined and result in higher vacuum. And the more vacuum pressure there is, the more gas you get (try pinching off the vacuum hose, and you get very little hydrogen). So that's how I had it connected. I was getting pretty good results, so I figured everything was fine. But my results were not very consistent. I would get 25mpg sometimes and 20mpg other times, with the average being around 23mpg.
Last night, I was just tinkering around with the system, and I pinched off each supply hose one by one. When I pinched off the hose going to the PCV line, almost nothing happened. But when I pinched off the hose going to the main intake, the lids got sucked in more and the cells started producing way more gas. Normally there was a thin layer of bubbles floating on the surface of the water, and I could see the bubbles coming off the plates. But after I pinched that hose, there was about a 1/4" layer of bubbles at the top. The whole cell turned into a white cloud, and I couldn't even see the plates at all. After playing around with the hoses some more, I finally figured out what was going on, and it was a very good discovery.
Here's what was going on. The vacuum in the PCV line was so much stronger than the main intake that it was actually sucking air backwards through the other supply hose. So air was actually getting sucked out of my intake pipe, through the supply hose, and then into the PCV line. That in itself was not much of a problem. The problem was that half of my vacuum pressure was being used to suck air out of the intake pipe, and the other half was going to the cells. So when I pinched off that main intake hose, the cells were getting full vacuum from the PCV line and started producing much more gas.
I came to the conclusion that I was probably getting good mileage at high rpm when the main intake hose had higher vacuum, but I was getting little or no improvement at low rpm and idle. Then the inconsistent results could be attributed to the amount of time I spent at various rpms.
So I made a small modification, and it made a huge difference. Now each supply hose has its own check valve after splitting off from the single hose. That way air cannot get sucked backwards through either hose when it has low pressure. So now, whichever line has more vacuum pressure will open while the other stays closed. Or if they have equal pressure, then they can both flow.
As soon as I made that change and switched the cells on, they were producing the most HHO I've ever seen. Here's what happened today when I was testing the new setup:
Previously, I had found that 305mV on the EFIE was giving me the best results. So I left it at 305mV and did an initial test. I only got 9.5mpg! I was actually very excited, because I knew what that meant. With the extra hydrogen, 305mV was not even enough to compensate for the extra o2. I was running a super rich mixture even at 305mV, and that got me excited. I turned it up to 330mV and drove around town for 44.8 miles. When I filled up, it only took 1.643 gallons... 27.27mpg in the city! And that was only my first try. I now have it set to 340mV, and I'm working on another test. For the first time, it's looking like 30mpg is a realistic goal. That would be a 76% increase in mileage (up from 17). Even if I just get 27mpg consistently, that's 435 miles for each tank of gas. I would be very happy if those were my final results. However, I want to squeeze every last drop out of this system, and I won't stop until I know I'm getting the best mileage I possibly can.
I think after sealing my lids better and fine tuning the EFIE, I can reach my goal of 30mpg. Getting 27mpg and shooting for 30 is a good place to be!
I just finished another mileage test, but I made a mistake that lessened the usefulness of the results.
I set the EFIE at 340mV and took off. But apparently I didn't wait long enough for the EFIE reading to settle down. I drove about 40.1 miles and filled up with 1.838 gallons. I was a little disappointed since it came out to 21.8 mpg. It was a sign that I had gone beyond my optimal setting. But then I plugged the multimeter back into the EFIE and was getting a reading of 365. It can take up to 10 minutes for the EFIE to settle down, and I was driving for almost an hour, so it must have been set at 365 for the majority of the test.
Even though I screwed up the test, it wasn't completely useless. At least now I have test results for 365mV. Here are the results I have so far with the new hose setup:
300mV: 23.9/2.508 = 9.5 mpg. Clearly way too rich... I aborted halfway through the test when I realized how bad it was.
330mV: 44.8/1.643 = 27.27 mpg. My best results ever!
365mV: 40.1/1.838 = 21.8 mpg. Not terrible, but clearly beyond the optimal range.
Looking at the tests above, my best guess is that the sweet spot will be around 340mV. I think it will continue to increase up to about 340 or 345 and then start dropping back down if I go beyond that. Although I don't want to be right at top of the "peak." I think if I was too close to the edge, I would start getting less and less mileage as my water level dropped. I would rather be on low end of the optimal range so that I could maintain the same mileage even with less-than-full jars.
Sorry for another long post. I was just trying to organize my thoughts out loud and open them up for critique/ideas/suggestions. Hopefully it will be helpful to someone else.
Kyle - very nicely laid out for the rest of us. Never worry about long posts. Everything posted here by every one has the potential to assist someone else as they move through the process. That's what this is all about.
Drive on,
j
I just got back from another test. Not only did I break my goal of 30mpg, I shattered it with 32.44 mpg!
I realized that the EFIE was not necessarily set where I thought it was for the other tests. I realized by watching the multimeter that the voltage was fluctuating as much as 20mV while I was driving. I guess the voltage from the alternator was changing and causing the EFIE to change. So I watched it for 10 minutes after setting it, and I set it so that the maximum value was 330mV. So while I was driving it was fluctuating between 312mV and 330mV. I started my test with that setting and drove 40 miles exactly. It only took 1.233 gallons to fill up!
So that's more or less a full 100% increase. I'm going to leave the EFIE alone now and see if I can get those kind of results consistently. I was happy to get 23-25mpg before, but if I can stay in the 28-32mpg range consistently, that would be amazing.
I'm going to stop doing short mileage tests now and just see what I get after using a full tank. If I continue to get 32mpg, I'll be able to get over 500 miles between fill-ups!
I did a short mileage test today, and boy am I glad I did. At the higher MAP enhancer settings I only got 17.74 mpg. My original knob setting was 30, then this test I was at 40. I'll back it off to 35 and see how that works.
Yeah, it's always good to do short tests after changing any settings. Never change your settings and then assume you will get better mileage. I have tried many settings that I thought would get me better mileage, and they got me worse mileage.
I think you're on the right track though. A setting of 40 was probably too big of a jump. It's better to start at the low end and work your way up.
So you got 22mpg with a setting of 30 and 18mpg with a setting of 40. My prediction is that your mileage will increase up to a setting of around 35 and then start dropping back down if you go beyond that. I would try testing at 35 and then at 32.5 and see which one works better.
This is so great! I love hearing results that reflect an overall understanding in what we're doing here. You guys rock!
So, here's the deal on my end - I just upped my Baking Soda to 5 teaspoons and have adjusted the MAP Enhancer accordingly. I've probably put in 3 or 4 miles with this change but tomorrow I'll be heading out for a few days of R and R, so the car will sit quietly until I return to test out what I've committed to. Can you believe that this is the thing that I think about when getting away from everything - is in front of me? Well it is, but I'll just have to leave things as they are. Not that I won't be talking to my brother-in-law about the total miracle I've left in the driveway at home. Igniting Water indeed.
Please keep me up to date with posts as I may get to check in once or twice. Have fun. Right - like I have to tell you guys that...
I just found this blogspot with a Google search on my W4G system causing the CEL to come on. Lots of good info here and much appreciated. I have 1 wire-wound electrode cell installed so far on my '93 Mark III 350 c.i. conversion van for testing and another cell coming. Talk about a cramped engine compartment! I've been told I need 6 total, since the HHO producion from each cell is about 1 liter per hour and W4G techs say you should have 1 cell for each liter of engine displacement. We'll see. But I'll have to move the system inside the van beyond 2 cells. I got a little too curious with my dual edge MAP enhancer and kicked in the CEL at the end of my short test run. As said before, you can clear the fault codes by disconnecting the battery for 30 seconds. Just have to be sure to enrich the MAP settings a bit to keep it off. I'm not certain what the 02 spacer trick or "the battery trick" is that was mentioned earlier. Can someone clue me in? Also, why disconnect the battery for 30 minutes after installing the MAP enhancer? The idea of using FIVE teaspoons of BS scares me! I'm running ONE teaspoon of baking soda now, have bubbles so thick you can't see the electrodes and may have to cut back! Electrolyzer jar gets almost too hot to touch after 10 minutes of driving (5 amp inline fuse). Keep those tips and tweaks coming and I'll try to do the same. ~FH
UPDATE: I reset my CEL, set the MAP enhancer on about 10 City and 8 Hwy, tossed the old ONE teaspoon BS electrolyte and reduced to about two thirds of a teaspoon and took a 30 mile test drive. Ran smooth and quiet city & hwy and upon return the electrolyzer jar was still hot but not so hot you couldn't keep your hand on it. Bubbling action at idle looked like the jar was boiling! But it wasn't hot enough to boil, so it must be really strong HHO production (bubbler set to about 1-3 bubbles per second with no power to the electrolyzer).
The 350 in my VERY heavy conversion van historically gets 15 MPG....TOPS!. I'm anxious to see what effect the HHO system might have. But I'm resisting the temptation to micro-manage fuel consumption by topping off every 50 miles to get a MPG check. That makes no sense to me. Air density, wind speed and direction, traffic conditions all vary on a day-to-day basis. So I'm waiting to check MPG at normal fill-up intervals for a more realistic average; kind of like Ron Popiel's infomercial mantra but applied to the MAP enhancer: "Set it and FORGET it" until I get some meaningful data. Then bump it up or down a notch and try again while keeping notes on the settings.
BTW- I found the O2 spacer previously mentioned and information about why I should use one. But they all seem to be 18mm and I understand they don't fit GM products. Any ideas where I can get one for my Chevy? I also read the HHO Development site and noticed they say 1 cell (1 qt.) for every TWO liters of engine displacement, not 1 for 1 as tech JJ at W4G said. Who's correct? Three cells would save me about $100 over 6 cells but I'd still have to move the system into the cabin. I can get 2 cells under the hood. BARELY! ~FH
Florida,
You can only use 5 tablespoons of BS when you have two cells connected in series. When you have one cell with 12v running through it, the electrolysis is less efficient and much of the electricity gets converted into heat. When you have two cells in series with 6v each, the electrolysis becomes more efficient and less electricity gets wasted as heat. So you can use more electrolyte and produce more HHO without overheating. Two cells in series produce more than twice as much as one cell. I have two cells with 5 tablespoons in each cell, and i'm drawing about 9 amps. I have ordered some KOH since it is a much better electrolyte, and I am going to adjust it so that the cells draw about 15 amps total.
I'm not sure where you could get o2 spacers. I would remove your sensors and measure the threads... you might get lucky and have standard sensors. Another idea is to wrap the body of the sensors with foil. It will insulate them and give you the same effect as a spacer, although not as dramatic. But it might work just enough to keep your CEL off. It's at least worth a shot since it doesn't really cost any money.
I dunno about those 5 tsp's of BS, walmart. The technical report on the HHO Developement site says pretty clearly that maximun HHO production per quart jar volume is about 1.2 liters per hour achieved at 1.23 volts and about 2 amps at ROOM TEMPERATURE up to 40 degrees celsius. That's about 104 fahrenheit. No more than 1 tsp of BS should provide enough electrolyte to sustain that. The report also says those are lab figures and about 2v per quart is more realistic to make up for exothermic heat loss (radiating off the jar to atmosphere). That's why all the HHO sites say a 6 jar system is optimal because, hooked up in series, each jar is getting about 2v. Adding more BS increases the amperage draw but doesn't produce more HHO. Just more heat.
The real trick for optimum HHO production appears to keep the heat as low as possible. Thus the recommendations for a cool location or insulating the jars from engine heat.
I have an experiment in mind to possibly establish the correct amount of BS needed to get the maximum 2 amp draw but have to get the stuff to do it. It would be a variable DC power supply cut back to 2v and a cell OUTSIDE the vehicle but hooked up to the intake manifold for a place for the gas to go. Drop a glass medical grade thermometer in the jar and add BS in increments until the distilled water temp reaches 100-104F max during operation. Or maybe just tape a thermometer to the outside of the jar and work from radiated temperature. Amps could be confirmed with an amp gauge in line but that also puts more resistance in line. And cheap auto store gauges won't acurately measure down that low.
Sure. Actual temperature of the jars is going to be higher in the closed engine compartment during normal operation. But at least there would be some basis for knowing you have the correct amount of BS in each one. But based upon all I've been able to read so far, 5 tsp's of soda in each jar will only increase heat way too far, not increase max HHO output and possibly send baking soda into the engine. Not good.
I've also decided not to mess with the O2 sensor. If the HHO system fails for any reason or I need to revert to normal operation for towing or heavy hauling, the O2 system being skewed or disabled will render the ECU system severly hampered or unusable. I'll just take whatever MPG gains I can get with the MAP enhancer and up to 6 cells and leave it at that. ~FH
It's been a while since I posted any progress... I got busy for a while and had less time to work on my system. But in the last week I've made some big progress that it worth reporting.
First of all, I switched from baking soda to potassium hydroxide. I bought a 2 pound bag for about $11 from a biodiesel supply store, and it's enough to last for years. I highly recommend switching, it's far superior to baking soda. It doesn't corrode the electrodes and cause rust... after about a month of usage, they look brand new again. And the water stays clear the whole time. Secondly, it doesn't get clogged in the valves and hoses, so there's less maintenance. And since it keeps the water clean, you don't have to keep dumping out the jars and cleaning them. The only maintenance I have to do now is add more water.
I've also been trying to figure out a solution for my o2 sensor. I have an AFR sensor, and previously there was no solution for them. An EFIE can be used on narrowband and 5-wire wideband sensors, but not 4-wire AFR sensors, which is what most newer Toyotas have. As you guys know, the only solution I could find was the MAF enhancer. It worked somewhat, but my results were inconsistent and not as high as they could have been. Then one day I stumbled across the following paragraph:
To alter an AFR sensor, cut the blue signal wire and install low value resistors. The range will be 30 ohms or less. Most of the vehicles have liked the 7 to 18 ohm range. I’ve never needed over 20 ohms as of yet. Again, an Ohm Ranger or low value pot will be helpful in your tuning. You will be able to feel 1 ohm resistance change.
This trim pot will also work for the 4 and 5 wire MAF sensors you cut the ground wire on these sensors and install it to adjust AFR normaly set to 5 OHM as a starting point
link
It was the first time I had ever seen any possible solution for AFR sensors, and it was something I could try with a couple parts from radio shack. So I figured out where the AFR signal wire went into the ECM and cut it. I added 16 ohms of resistance to start with. This is where I'm at right now. I just got it set up and filled up my tank to start a new test, but I don't have any results yet. However, I confirmed that the modification really was causing a leaner mixture. The setting that I used to use on my MAF enhancer now almost kills the engine. So I turned off the MAF enhancer and I'm ready to start testing this. It looks very promising, and I really hope it works. If nothing else, it will keep the check engine light off. And if it does work, AFR sensors will actually be the easiest of the three sensor types to deal with. It would only require a $2 resistor from radio shack and no MAP/MAF enhancer or EFIE.
I have two 8 ohm and two 10 ohm resistors, so I can test 10, 16, 18, and 20 ohms. I'll let you guys know when I start getting some mileage test results.
Hi, I am now getting into the water4gas. I purchased a MAP sensor enhancer and it doesn't seem to be working as everyone is saying. When I turn on enhance/city and adjust the corresponding nob nothing happens. However, when I am driving and reach speeds around 50mph the engine suddenly drops off and the check engine light comes on. Then I can grap the controller and feel it working, but it only lasts for a few seconds and then goes back to normal. I've tried switching from city to highway, but there appears to be no difference. I have a MAP sensor and a MAF sensor on my vehichle. Does this make a difference?
Well I hate to say this - but if I were you I would go back to the beginning and start over - making sure that each connection was exactly as it is supposed to be, and only putting on one gadget at a time. From what you say it does not sound as if the MAP enhancer is connected as it should be (but, of course I cannot know for sure). Anyway since you have both sensors hooked up you may be experiencing some sort of conflict. Remember that it's fairly easy to confuse the computer and you want to make sure that you confuse it in the way that you prefer. I don't know if any of that is helpful but it's all I've got.-P
Best of luck,
'J'
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